Difference between revisions of "ChoralWiki talk:Seasonal music"

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:By the way, I guess I understand the need to follow the ISO standard which dictates that weeks start on Monday, but in my (Christian) calendar the week starts on Sunday! "Early in the morning, ''on the first day of the week'' …". A picky thing, that I guess we can't change. — [[User:BarryJ|Barry Johnston]] [[User talk:BarryJ|(talk)]] 21:53, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
 
:By the way, I guess I understand the need to follow the ISO standard which dictates that weeks start on Monday, but in my (Christian) calendar the week starts on Sunday! "Early in the morning, ''on the first day of the week'' …". A picky thing, that I guess we can't change. — [[User:BarryJ|Barry Johnston]] [[User talk:BarryJ|(talk)]] 21:53, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
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"the date as a link, then when a user chooses the date, a page appears" If there's to be a separate subpage for each of [[Music for 18 February, 2020]] on through the decades, that starts to seem like more work ;-) than lining up a single page.
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I really appreciate all the pointers! Google doesn't tell me whether "con" is something readily understood by programers: does it really stand for conjunction? As to "and", in this page's context ru:AndText=и [https://learnrussianstepbystep.com/en/russian-conjuctions-a-and-i/ works better than] ru:AndText=а, but is machine translation feasible? Being from a paper and ink generation I'm perhaps unduly skeptical of automation, which has produced some impressive results with TextAutoList and #SortWorks (please see though a concern at [[Template talk:CheckMissing#A Byrd mystery]]). Yet I still think a novice might rather update Claude's [[ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr]] than figure out [[User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal/fr]].
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How would one edit <br>
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<nowiki>
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| 7 = *[[:Category:Quinquagesima|{{{MusicSunday|Music for this Sunday}}}, {{#time: j F|16 February|{{{99|}}}}}]]</nowiki><br>
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to produce instead:
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*Music for [[:Category:Quinquagesima|OT/Epiphany 6]] (3-year lectionaries) or ''{{CC|Sexagesima}}''
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[[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] ([[User talk:Richard Mix|talk]]) 01:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:27, 15 February 2020

Update guidelines

This is week 09.

Week number calculation is based on the ISO 8601 International Standard:

  • Weeks start on a Monday
  • Weeks are measured W01 to W52/W53
  • W01 is the week containing the 4th of January or, equivalently, the first Thursday of the year
Week numbers for the following years
  2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024
January, 1st 01 53 52 01 01 01 53 52 52 01
January, 2nd 01 53 01 01 01 01 53 52 01 01
January, 3rd 01 53 01 01 01 01 53 01 01 01
January, 4th 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
December, 28 53 52 52 52 52 53 52 52 52 52
December, 29 53 52 52 52 52 53 52 52 52 52
December, 30 53 52 52 52 01 53 52 52 52 01
December, 31 53 52 52 01 01 53 52 52 52 01

There is no need to renumber all entries when the first week of a new year does not coincide with the current week numbering. Just change the line below in the code:

{{#switch: {{#time: W }}

and add (+1) or subtract (-1) a week:

{{#switch: {{#time: W |+1 week}}

Automation

Last Fall I made a bunch of entries of the form --> *[[:Category:Advent IV|Music for this Sunday, December 21]] <-- and fora while was updating Sunday nights by manually moving the commenting out brackets. One stage of automating things would be to have precoded entries advance at midnight on Sunday; another would be to have the date automatically supplied from the year's calendar; a third layer of complexity is dealing with the date of Easter! Any thoughts? Richard Mix (talk) 04:08, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Richard. The first case is very simple to implement, I'll add the code for one or two sundays so you may have an idea of how it works. For specific dates it would work in a similar fashion. For Easter, things complicate a lot because of the various calculations involved, but it's not totally impossible to implement. Maybe for this specific case, it would be easier to add the dates by hand, since it's done just once a year. —Carlos Email.gif 15:57, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Richard, using the week number function to select the appropriate Sunday revealed to be not as simple as I expected: please have a look at ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/Sandbox. It seems that not all years start in week "01" (e.g., 2016 starts as week 53 of 2015, quite strange!). The week numbers here also do not coincide with the week numbers of the w:Ordinary Time (see table in that page). It seems that I'll have to start the week calculation from scratch, basing myself on that Wikipedia article. A function that calculates the Easter day will also be necessary. I had a look at the way that the Easter date is calculated on Wikipedia, and it's a bit confusing. Unfortunately there isn't a template there that could be imported into CPDL without having to go through a large rewriting of the code. I'll keep you informed of any updates. —Carlos Email.gif 16:54, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the week number function (53 seems as good as 0 though) which I see days can be counted from, but there's plenty for me to chew on at WP! We want to fill in {{Cat|Pentecost VI|Music for this Sunday, dd Month}} and know OT12/Proper 7 is what Lutherans call the Sunday between June 19 and June 25 inclusive (I made a table at Ordinary Time as well) even though that may not be the 6th Sunday after Pentecost for churches following the old calendar (such choirs tend to be already quite canny though). After Christmas things get messy: sometimes Baptism gets moved to Monday instead of being the first Sunday of OT. Would it be cheating to just fill in Jan 11 for the first Sunday after Epiphany this year? ;-P
Before automation of the calendar through years, we have to create it for this year. It's presently stopped at February, 2nd, a day that's passed. Claude (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes Claude, a completely automated system will demand a lot of work, as it seems! In the mean time, a much simpler system can be developed that will just update "Seasonal music" once a week with whatever content had been previously assigned for that week. This can be done pretty fast; then someone will have to select the appropriate content for each week, as I lack the necessary knowledge for it. —Carlos Email.gif 18:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
If the much simpler version is set up I'd be happy to keep it going for a few years. Richard Mix (talk) 03:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Richard, the basic automation is up and running; it's really simple, you just have to add the appropriate links for each week, following the example of the ones already added by me. If you need to add more than one link, put one per line, as usual. Thanks, —Carlos Email.gif 04:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hm! Did something happen to week 49? Richard Mix (talk) 08:50, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Translation

I have made changes so the dates on this page will be translated on the Main Page, so far just French and Italian. But the words and phrases on this page are more numerous, and I wonder if it would be better if the material in the switch ("Music for this Sunday … ") was just a list of 52 dates – easier to automate, too. The extra dates and words are explained on the pages linked, so maybe they don't need to appear on the main page? — Barry Johnston (talk) 02:49, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi Barry, Where is the translations being done, or should ChoralWiki talk:Seasonal music be the glossary page? An automated shortcut for the seasonal line ("Music for Epiphanytide, Sundays of Ordinary Time and Ash Wednesday (6 March)", soon to be replaced by "Music for Lent, Passiontide & Easter") would be most welcome: how would it be implemented? I think I can still sort of see how things work after the latest changes and figure out how to edit, but could there be a little more explaining please? As we get further away from English and use things like {{{Con|and}}} I start to worry for my successor ;-) Btw, kalendar with a K to avoid confusion with calendar is a standard usage among some Anglicans, believe it or not! Richard Mix (talk) 22:37, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi Richard. The Main Page has ten component pages: TopMatter, SearchSection, LatestNews, BrowseSection, ComposerSection, ScoreCatalogSection, Volunteers, Other languages, Seasonal music, and Latest scores. In these (including the Main Page itself) words and phrases of text are assigned code names. Each of these eleven pages has language subpages, for example, ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr is a subpage of ChoralWiki:Seasonal_music (see Main Page/fr for the overall result). These subpages provide the translations.
I have made test modifications of the last two pages, because when I asked Claude for his translations into French, he supplied me with a translation of the whole Seasonal music page without any codes. I codified his translations, which is what you see on my test pages, User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal and User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal/fr. This is not quite finished. Is there no category for New Year (or New year's Day)? For these test pages, all of the seasonal lines are showing so I can make sure I did the codification right. I could arrange automation of these seasonal lines if you could tell me, which weeks (by number) would apply to which of the nine seasonal lines? (I assume the first and last would always appear).
I don't have complete translations for the Italian versions, and Max has said he is content with seeing the English text for Seasonal music. He is super busy just now anyway with bigger matters. I would be most interested in your comments on this system, especially whether it can be converted in future years. I might be able to automate the conversion a little more, so all you have to put in would be the dates, like
Lent 2        = 8 March
Ash Wednesday = 6 March
Let me know if that would help. Would you rather I used {{{And|and}}}? Also, "Kalendar" is strange to say the least. What does it mean? Cheers. — Barry Johnston (talk) 15:21, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, & last first, you can find Kalendar (The Catholic version is called the "Ordo") in some dictionaries; its virtue is distinguishing a prescribed succession of celebrations from the Proper of Saints/Calendar of Saints, 4th Sunday before Dec. 25, movable Easter cycles, and local feasts that all go into its making. If 2 arguments with a pipe are really necessary(?), {{{Or|or}}} & fr:OrText=ou does have a more intuitive feel than con[junction?], I think. Where do these abbreviations live, though? I also don't understand #switch or #time j F, and though I realize making a tutorial can be a lot of work, I get nervous not knowing how my editing might affect pages I don't even know about yet.

I'm coming to regret "This Sunday" since, besides minor variations in the 3-year kalendar/ordo, there are an increasing number of Extraordinary Form users who have been figuring out for themselves that their Quinquagesima is the last Sunday before Lent instead of the Sixth Sunday in Ordinary Time, and that the Arabic numeraled Easter 4 is followed by Easter 3 if one is observing Dominica II & III post Pascha. "Music for Ordinary Time 6/Epiphany 5 or Septuagesima" covers more bases. Richard Mix (talk) 23:25, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I will change {{con|and}} to {{and|and}}, then.
The WikiMedia function {{#switch:{{#time: W }} … }} in this case, asks for Week number, and displays what follows the number; for this week it's 7. {{#time: j F|<Date>|{{{99|}}}}} displays the <date> in DD MMM format, in language 99 (which defaults to English). Switch is explained here, and time here.
You are the one designing the calendar part of the Seasonal music page, as far as I can tell. The codes ("abbreviations") start on this page; they were made by some person long ago, and I have added to them as needed; my codes tend to be shorter, since I have to key them in. My understanding of church calendars is very limited, since none of the churches I have attended over the years used a calendar. I think that whatever gets designed should meet the needs of most users, including those in languages other than English. My preference is to keep it a simple as possible, which would be to simply display the date as a link, then when a user chooses the date, a page appears where complications and alternative names are explained.
Another alternative would be to keep the simple "Music for this Sunday, <date>" and in addition offer a link to a page with a table that would explain the different calendars; that table could have columns for different years, with each row giving a week number.
By the way, I guess I understand the need to follow the ISO standard which dictates that weeks start on Monday, but in my (Christian) calendar the week starts on Sunday! "Early in the morning, on the first day of the week …". A picky thing, that I guess we can't change. — Barry Johnston (talk) 21:53, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

"the date as a link, then when a user chooses the date, a page appears" If there's to be a separate subpage for each of Music for 18 February, 2020 on through the decades, that starts to seem like more work ;-) than lining up a single page.

I really appreciate all the pointers! Google doesn't tell me whether "con" is something readily understood by programers: does it really stand for conjunction? As to "and", in this page's context ru:AndText=и works better than ru:AndText=а, but is machine translation feasible? Being from a paper and ink generation I'm perhaps unduly skeptical of automation, which has produced some impressive results with TextAutoList and #SortWorks (please see though a concern at Template talk:CheckMissing#A Byrd mystery). Yet I still think a novice might rather update Claude's ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr than figure out User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal/fr. How would one edit
| 7 = *[[:Category:Quinquagesima|{{{MusicSunday|Music for this Sunday}}}, {{#time: j F|16 February|{{{99|}}}}}]]
to produce instead:

Richard Mix (talk) 01:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)